[TMP] "Leftenant or Lootenant?" Topic . In 1677, Samuel Pepys, while he was Chief Secretary to the Admiralty, introduced the first examination for lieutenant,[2] and thereafter their seniority was dated from the passing of this examination. English is a wonderful language with elastic properties and influences from Nordic, Germanic and Arabic languages, Latin and Greek (among others) which allow for great expression of things technical, poetic, spiritual and esoteric. -----BEGIN REPORT----- Commissioned Royal Marine Gunner. The Oz did copy RN speak re Lieutenant, but this came about as RN were terribly wary that the LOOtenant as `spoke' by the `Old-Colonials' would creep in. The origin of the beta type of forms (which survives in the usual British proununciation, though the spelling represents the alpha type) is difficult to explain. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? I suppose that the usage common in WW1 would have been what I was taught 35 years later. dailyinfo[17]='
PLY/3566 Private Samuel ROBINSON H.M.S. "Foyle." As to the original "leftenent" issue, the commonly accepted explanation is the u/v Old French connection, however, even though it is the accepted explanation, there seems to be some uncertainty as to the truth of this theory. Such is the case with the word lieutenant. I really like that "u"/"v" explanation! Leinster Regiment who died 27/02/1918 JERUSALEM MEMORIAL Israel and Palestine (including Gaza) '
YjNhM2FhZTE4ZmRmZjMyYTE0OGQxODk1MjlhN2M2YTVmNWIwZTkxYzk5YjMy Agreed. dailyinfo[28]='
19673 Leading Aircraftman Samuel Ambrose TICKNER Meritorious Service Medal No. Lieutenant is the third commissioned officer rank in the United States Navy, and is comparable to the rank of Captain in the other branches of the Armed Service. New Zealand Engineers who died 13/03/1918 ST. POL COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION France '
Worcestershire Regiment who died 23/02/1915 LOKER CHURCHYARD Belgium '
lent to Royal Canadian Navy at Halifax, NS [HMCS Stadacona?] Why are there 3 different ways to pronounce "oo"? However, depending on the branch of the security forces, there may be associated words and abbreviations to consider. MDYzZmM2MjY3YmEzMTllNDU5NTkzMDNlODZlMzUxYTkyYWExNjE1MDg0OTBl dailyinfo[13]='
37643 Sapper Thomas John ECCLESTON Tunnelling Coy. As for the Rhotic accents (i.e. Seems Ben was right on the Revolutionary War beint the dividing point of British and American pronunciation, but IMO, it's pronounced with the F or V sound because of the U/V being interchangable during that time. I think you'll find that American English is a simplified and bastardised (once again, "s" not "z") version of British English. & Americans need to stop hating on the French -- without Benny Franklin's requesting help from King Louis in 1775, there would be no USA. In smaller ships that have only a single deck division, the billet is typically filled by an ensign; while in larger ships, with a deck department consisting of multiple subordinate divisions, the billet may be filled by a lieutenant commander. 26 More answers below In pronouncing the word "military", why do Americans say "MILL-uh-tarry" while the English say "MILL-uh-tree"? A newspaper quot. The British at the time were far more concerned with a dude named Napoleon than they were with us. The language continues to evolve rapidly, now including not only other languages but also computer words as well. Welcome to The Royal Navy Shop. And what is it with these Americans, who speak of British English and a British version - hello!! Both [v] (also [f]) and [w] are labial soundsthat is, made with the lips. and 34th Coy. Why do Brits say bloody? Etymonline indicates that spelling with lef- dates to the 14th century, but that the origins of that spelling (and presumably its associated pronunciation) are mysterious. But it seems that these days the RN have adopted the English/Army pronunciation of "leftenant." c2lnbmF0dXJlIjoiOTY1ZWYxYjAzMzZiMTI2MDIyYThlMDg5YzE4OGRhY2Yy There Rawdon was met by Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart, who had come up from Charleston with an Irish regiment. Colour has a u to credit the path via the French; true, the original Latin did not have a u, but we didn't get it directly from Rome -- we got it from France! YzgwZjg2NDUyYjE0NDdhYWUzZDE5NGQ2MjJjNzJkMmNiZTA1MjJiMTI5NmE2 NjcyOWZhNTVmNGZiOGQwMDU5ZDg4ZGI4ZjRlYzZhOGMxZGM3ODQyNDQ0NWU0 . It has been the inspiration for. Please show me a source for this in and Old French dictionary. 2/ What is British English? Many navies also use a subordinate rank of sub-lieutenant. Then "lieutenant" would have the pronunciation of "lyeuchtenant". Old French is not one language, it's a bunch of dialects. As to why present day usage is as it is: People can be contrary. Write it here to share it with the entire community. Later, when the drive by the English to rid the language of french words began, they modified the word to try to match their pronunciation and made it "leftenant". - All officers join the Royal Navy at this rank while training for a specialist role at BRNC in Dartmouth. Development in operations and logistics. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. The hypothesis of a mere misinterpretation of the graphic form (u read as v), at first sight plausible, does not accord with the facts. As the rank structure of navies stabilized, and the ranks of commander, lieutenant commander, and sub-lieutenant (or lieutenant, junior grade in the U.S. services) were introduced, the rank of naval lieutenant became less wide-ranging and is today the equivalent of an army captain. While it will always remain a mystery, I think that this goes back to the OF pronunciation of "lieu" to sound like "lyeuch". Oh dear Bryan, don't you mean 'off'. The 1970 printing of the fifth (1969) edition of the Pocket Oxford Dictionary says 'let' in the navy, 'loo' in the USA and 'left' otherwise. English Language & Usage Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts. If you believe Wordfence should be allowing you access to this site, please let them know using the steps below so they can investigate why this is happening. 'Lieutenant' comes from French lieu ('place') and tenant ('holding'). Regional accents will always create some anomalies but those cases where there is an obvious sense in pronouncing as spelt - such as lieutenant - will disappear. esp. I thought 'leftenant' was only used by Americans imitating - or caricaturing - British English. From Latin then, lieutenant literally means "place holder" and the military lieutenant acts on behalf ofor in place oftheir commanding officer. To say that the British English don't speak true English is just pure ignorance. I was always taught - in the '50s - that "left" was army, "loo" was American, and Le'tenant (emphasis on the "ten" )was RN, and therefore right ! Bryan from ST Pauls says, 'off of'. I came here looking for an answer. Unlike other words that have been standardised to read more phonetically (especially true in the United States), military terms have tended to retain their peculiarities out of a desire to maintain traditions. In the 1700s an American English dictionary was written by a man named Noah Webster. My fellow Brit's cynical intolerance for Americans makes me ashamed to be British. Listen to Mr Fry here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY and go away feeling very ashamed of yourselves. The reason why people from the commonwealth say "lef-tenant" can probably be attributed to the U being misread as a V during the middle ages, which in turn developed into and F sound. document.write;
5th Bde. How do/did the RAF pronounce (Flight) Lieutenant? According to military customs, a lower ranking soldier walks on the left side of a senior officer. Fun Fact: American english, and all of it's accents is named general american Oh, for goodness sake: grow up, will you? Officers are typically promoted after serving as a sub-lieutenants (OF-1) for 30 months. The 'Leftenant' pronunciation appears to stem from Middle French which both had very different pronunciations to Modern French (like English) and the French-speaking elite in England definitely spoke very differently to those in France - we know this was a source of some mockery in the Middle Ages. The only deviations you will find are regional accents, which I'm sure you'll also find in the American English language. //-->, By Royal Indian Navy rating (may be found spelt Tendal) Topass. The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that use of the Middle English forms with f may also have been encouraged by an association of the first element [lieu] with other English words, such as the noun leavea lieutenant being an officer who substitutes for another who is on leave or perhaps one who has the superior officers leave to take command when he is absent or otherwise unable to fulfill his functions.
Elizabethan pronunciation was rhotic (like American English) and actually sounds much closer to Northern Irish or Cornish than American Southern. dailyinfo[16]=' 22659 Serjeant George SNELL Military Medal "T" Bty. Royal Marine Light Infantry who died 17/03/1918 BELLAVISTA OLD BRITISH CEMETERY Peru '
NmFiZGIxNzIxNTJhN2I5YzM5NWNiMTI2MjVjMTQzZTdkYTIwNWExMjEzNjY2 Please click for detailed translation, meaning, pronunciation and example sentences for lieutenant de l'ordre royal de victoria in English Here's a link to the Revolutionary War Theory: http://www.livescience.com/33652-americans-brits-accents.html. That could have something to do with it. 'hafta' from have to). Irish Guards who died 18/03/1916 CALAIS SOUTHERN CEMETERY France '
Simon, David, Dragon - the nearest I can get in phonetics is LUHtenant. else { document.write(fontstart+"No major events today"+fontend); }
The word was originally two Latin terms, "locum" meaning in place of, and "teneris" meaning holding, together the phrase applied to anyone "holding in place of" someone else. Lieutenant salaries at Royal Navy can range from 44,510 - 55,095 per year. Maybe that was just RAF folks being corrupted by USAF folks while here in the states, I dunno. It's possible the US adopted "Loo" because and only because the Brits said "Lef" -- or vice-versa. Royal Canadian Navy: Canadian Forces (Force Mobile Command, Air Command) Royal Canadian . Powered by Invision Community, The West Africa squadron in the 1840s; naval medicine; First World War, especially in poetry, art and fiction, 6th Btn South Staffordshire Regiment, 46th (North Midland) Division, Liverpool Scottish
I just could not find a suitable spelling for the intonation of the voice - still cannot actually, but Le'tenant is about it !! The Norman French phrase 'lieutenant' may have predated the Latin rendering 'locum tenens'. Lieutenants serve as Division Officers aboard Navy ships, and command groups of sailors and petty officers in various divisions including the deck department, engineering, and others. dailyinfo[8]='
13277 Labourer Klaas NERO South African Native Labour Corps who died 08/03/1917 PUGU ROAD 1914-1918 MEMORIAL Tanzania '
Thank the British for our language and New York, else we would be speaking Dutch in New Amsterdam (or however the Dutch spell it). In his world the word is pronounced li-you-tenant, combining the correct pronunciation of the word lieu with tenant. About; The Court; Merit Selection; Kansas Values; News; Donate; "lieutenant" "pronunciation" "royal navy" December 12, 2022 by fcs coaches on the hot seat by fcs coaches on the hot seat var month=mydate.getMonth()+1
What can a lawyer do if the client wants him to be acquitted of everything despite serious evidence? It thus seems to be a spelling pronunciation. Lieu from french shows up in English phrases like "in lieu of" meaning "in place of", so lieu means place and lieutenant essentially means placeholder. (English pronunciations of lieutenant from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus and from the Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary, both sources Cambridge University Press) What is the definition of lieutenant? The Yanks call it "lootenant" across the board. Check out Dr. Berg's Electrolyte Powder Here: https://drbrg.co/3xbvH0A ~~~
Canada. I think it's pronounced with an "f" sound (spelled v) in Russian as well. I'm still not sure how on earth to pronounce it . It is typically the most senior of junior officer ranks. The British didn't much like the French at one timeand anglicised words that my be mistaken as french. Appalachian accents are much twangier, but some have posited that Elizabethan English sounded a lot like Appalachian speak. YWVmOGM3ZDZkNTJhNjYwMjlhNmI5MDBiYmViYjY1M2ZiNDA5MzFiYTc3YmQ5 rev2023.3.3.43278. They drop the "f" and say "le-tenant." What is a lieutenant called in England? Commander At first, a lieutenant's commission was given only for the particular ship in which he served, but after the loss of HMS Wager in 1741 and the subsequent mutiny, the Royal Navy changed its policy and lieutenants were given more general commissions upon passing their examination.[1]. The earliest examples in OED are all from Scotland, and it seems even then that the "Lefftenant" pronunciation was being used (Barbour's "Bruce" has "luftenand" in the mid 14th century). . In the Royal Navy, the pronunciation used to be "L'tenant" but never "Lootenant". var dailyinfo= new Array(31)
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25368 Quartermaster Serjeant Leonard Henry CADE Meritorious Service Medal 12th Coy. There is a rarely used word, lief, which I see in old books in phrases like "I'd as lief jump off this wall as " and I think it is another spelling and pronunciation of lieu. form luef for lieu (with which cf. This naval lieutenant ranks higher than an army lieutenants; within NATO countries the naval rank of lieutenant is a OF-2 and is the equivalent rank of an army captain. Lincolnshire Regiment who died 05/03/1916 CITE BONJEAN MILITARY CEMETERY, ARMENTIERES France '
Please click for detailed translation, meaning, pronunciation and example sentences for lieutenant commander (royal navy) in English The "lieu" in this word means "place" (think of in lieu of), and the tenant means "holding," like "holding a position."The two parts together referred to "a placeholder for a superior." dailyinfo[20]='
10259 Private Charles BUCHANAN 1st Bn. Way back in the evolution of English as a language, the letters 'V' and 'U' were basically the same. if (month<10) month="0"+month
The idea that the change in pronunciation is due to nationalist jingoism is somewhat misguided - as it was more of a way for the educated upper class to distance themselves from the uneducated poor, but the fact that they sounded "posher" than their colonial cousins (with whom they had just engaged in TWO bloody wars) definitely served to sweeten the pot. OGRjNTY2MGZmNzY5MjBiNTFhMGUyYTE0YWZiNTEwYjBhOTBmYTBhYzJhZjM4 Acidity of alcohols and basicity of amines. Forum discussions with the word (s) "lieutenant" in the title: dailyinfo[12]=' 457 Lance Corporal Arthur Price ROWE 2nd/7th Bn. BTW Canadians technically say lef-tenant though many ordinary folks say it the US way because that's what we hear on TV. MDUwMTdkNzA4YTAxNTJkZWY1ZWU0M2U2M2U0YjViZGNjN2ZlZjEyYTQ0YjQ4 Of means to show ownership. The interwebs is a wondrous place! ZGI1YjZhNWRkZmVjZWJhMDhhOWIyZjRjOGZmNDY3ZmZhYjZmN2VkM2YwN2Nm (Not all of you, some of you had some insightful comments above; but the anally retentive chauvinists above know who they are). Even later, when the Americans cuddled up to the French during the revolutionary war, their pronunciation changed to follow the french term. NWEzNjA5OGIwZDA4MDk1MzliMTE3N2YwNjNjZDVhYjM5MTBmNjljNzQ3Y2Zm How To Spell "Lieutenant" Lieutenant (commissioned officer in the armed forces, police, or other organization) is also derived from French. What is a word for the arcane equivalent of a monastery? It is possible that when the English heard the French pronounce the compound word lieutenant, they perceived a slurring which they heard as a "v" or "f" sound between the first and second syllables. 'Off of' is completely and gramatically very incorrect.
I speak no more like a hick than Tony Blair speaks like Russell Brand. The now immediately senior rank of lieutenant commander was formerly a senior naval lieutenant rank. Is it like saying "Leftenant" without the f, or saying "le tenant"? and Gen. Hos. But it seems the answer is not known by the best scholars Oxford can produce. In British slang, of which there is a great deal, the word loo refers to a toilet. E-mail : share.unit@nblbd.com, Useful Link Site | Disclosure on Risk Based Capital (Basel-III) | Code of Conduct (NBL) | Code of Conduct (Bangladesh Bank) | Bank Note Security Fea Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. It is possible that Middle English speakers may have heard the final (w) of this word [] as a (v) or (f) []. More of an observation than fact. I am not certain, but would guess that it may have been the American pronunciation which diverged when Noah Webster's Dictionary was published - he rationalized (according to his lights) spelling, and it may be that he tried to rationalize pronunciation too, especially given the US/French entente in the 18th century. The Lieutenant always had someone guarding the sword when the Commanding Officer was wearing it. There is one common abbreviation for the word lieutenant: Lt. ant l-ten-nt 1 : an official who acts for a higher official 2 a : first lieutenant b : second lieutenant c : a naval commissioned officer with a rank just below that of lieutenant commander d : a fire or police department officer ranking below a captain More from Merriam-Webster on lieutenant No one can really say why in the British Army the word is pronounced "left-tenant" but it's notable that in the Royal Navy the pronunciation seems half way across the ocean. Bluecher German Navy who died 29/01/1915 CANNOCK CHASE GERMAN MILITARY CEMETERY United Kingdom '
It's English - our language. Personally, I think that regardless of the tradition, the simple lack of a letter F should mean that you don't pronounce it "left-tenant". How do you ensure that a red herring doesn't violate Chekhov's gun? A Lieutenant is a Commissioned Officer within the Royal Navy and is a rank higher than Sub-Lieutenant but subordinate to Lieutenant Commander. :). Born in Gateshead, Blake joined the RN in early 1939 and was assigned to the Fleet Air Arm for flight training. Personally, I like the Latin u/v explanation. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. It's apparent from the examples of usage given that a mixture was in use, e.g. There are differences in the way it is spelt and spoken but ultimately isn't it great that so many people can share a common language and so be able to develop a common understanding. We're excited to bring you exclusive and bespoke licensed Royal Navy products working with the Royal Navy Royal Marines Charity, Royal Navy Association and Submariners Association. The insignia of an additional half-stripe between the two full stripes of a lieutenant . Of course- this is opinion and I have been wrong before. pronouncing the R in Water), it should be noted that their decline in England is a rather recent phenomenon. This estimate is based upon 17 Royal Navy Lieutenant salary report (s) provided by employees or estimated based upon statistical methods. Y2NhNTQ5OGQzMmZjYjFiODhkOWIzZDZiY2U2YWE2ZjI5MWQwMWQ3ODM5NjYx By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. The insignia for a Lieutenant consists of two medium gold braid stripes.
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